However, we know the emotion of uncertainty unlocks surprise and fun in our lives and allows us to experience brand new feelings, thoughts, beliefs and strategies. (So, e.g. I don’t see anyway this one is plausible unless some really surprising facts emerge later. I will move away from alleged victims and proceed on the basis that actual victims of sexual violence do genuinely exist so that I can lose some of the necessary conditionals for a paragraph or two. Suppose you feel angry at S-K for what he may have done. Wouldn’t it be possible to respond: yes, you are supposed to decide and judge neutrally. Also, there’s there conventional signalling that such and such an emotion would be appropriate if the facts turn out such and such, which is quite independent of actually feeling the emotion in question. Why Uncertainty Is Linked to Anxiety As a researcher who studies anxiety and emotion regulation, I can tell you that these are all valid and understandable responses to a disruptive event, such as a global pandemic â especially. Also, we should at all times maintain a state of general indigance toward the French. The truth is, â¦ Regardless of what DSK has done, the reaction from parts of the media (in France especially) of conflating sexual violence with “seduction” seems to be a classic case of rape culture in action. There are those who will use their intellect to go looking for justifications for their outrage instead – with smart people, that can be rather scary). Emotionally neutral, of course. So believing that there’s an 80% that he’s guilty feels a lot like believing that there’s a 20% chance (although a little bit stronger), since they’re both in the maybe category, and they both feel different from seeing it as 100% or as 0%. Even in cases where convictions are secured or guilty pleas entered, there is still reluctance to believe victims in many quarters and a desire to minimise their experiences: search the web for discussions of any high-profile convicted rapist or one who actually entered a guilty plea and examine what is written, the ambivalence about whether a crime was actually committed, and from whence it comes (itâs not all courtesy of online trolls salivating for a reaction). George Scialabba / What Are Intellectuals Good For? Should everyone be emotionally neutral but laying down markers promising high emotionality after the trial? And why add even more to victimsâ misplaced, culturally-conditioned sense of guilt by chiding them for not âdoing the right thingâ or criticising them for empowering an attacker when they are wrestling with the aftermath of physical disempowerment and trying to regain a degree of decision-making and sense of control? Couldn’t that also be seen as a violation of dignity and respect? The Emotion Thesaurus is also at our sister site, One Stop for Writers. Scientists explain what uncertainty does to the brain â and what you can do to make it easier. Click on the ∞ symbol next to a name for a list of all of that author's posts. The OMG-Emotion Behavior Dataset Pablo Barros, Nikhil Churamani, Egor Lakomkin, Henrique Siqueira, Alexander Sutherland and Stefan Wermter Knowledge Technology, Department of Informatics University of Hamburg, Hamburg (Not all, of course. but if sheâd done the right thing then, perhaps this woman would not have been a victim. For me, the question is why can’t we just speak in those terms – why must it be dressed up in emotion-speak? This is emotionâ¦ And while all of us knew that we would not be chosen for that trial, which would be some time in coming, the only comment that was made was that it would have been interesting. That is a strange idea, because people have such emotions ALL THE TIME, such that it seems to be a significant part of how humans behave. “What is the appropriate emotional state to have” is a bad question: people either have emotional states or they don’t. A mere accusation shouldn’t have these types of consequences. We don’t say ‘you shouldn’t have to put your emotions aside, because you shouldn’t have them.’. In some cases, certainty is developed in emotion. Disagree with glenn here. That would be a complicating factor, but absent such qualifications I’m inclined towards accepting the following principle: when it seems highly likely that the situation is such as to warrant emotion X, go ahead and feel emotion X, but be prepared to take some kind of remedial action if the situation turns out to be otherwise. But Banon was an adult at the time, and yeah ceded to her mother’s wishes, apparently. What should Stephen do to maintain standards and ensure that all the guest rooms are serviced? Perhaps sometimes when people say they are “outraged” (etc.) Sympathy, first. Emotionally, I don’t feel all that invested. Normally this is for inmates with contagious diseases, but a NY Post article claims that the victim was living in an apartment complex that only rents to HIV+ people. I wonder if people are assuming that the cost of being angry when that anger is not appropriate is higher than the cost of not being angry when anger is appropriate. Shortly after the quasi-judgment, I remind myself that the person might not have really committed the misdeed. Is she from some African country that really got screwed by the IMF and was to reciprocate? The simple fact is that any emotion we feel here will, in all likelihood, turn out to be idiotic and misguided (as I found out already to my disadvantage). “Iâm not sure we can afford emotions about news items concerning people we donât know, and likely will never meet.”. But I get womanizing, in the sense of making overtures to lots of possible partners. But Banon allowed her to be. So this may have the impact of creating new posterior probabilities, based on how much weight we give to this conditional evidence. Andrew Burton wrote: (b) what else is out there about other powerful men that is routinely brushed under the carpet? Iâm not sure we can afford emotions about news items concerning people we donât know, and likely will never meet. Rejecting 2 and 3 means that either DSK is guilty, or the woman is lying. I’m not sure we can afford emotions about news items concerning people we don’t know, and likely will never meet. If we believe what Banon is saying now, she was very young at the time of the attempted rape and was put under intolerable pressure by people she might suppose to have her interests at heart, including her own mother, not to report it. Nonetheless, I do think it comes down to DSK is guilty (likely) or conspiracy (very unlikely). “Whether or not the court agrees, there is a victim in this case. Chris y – I see your point and partially agree, which was why my anger was couched and restrained. They are an announcement that we abhor certain types of behavior, yet are also fair minded. There’s no right or wrong wih the id. As I said, anger is perhaps not a very respectable emotion in political discourse). Uncertainty in gambling to win shows the emotion of a person. Honestly I find it hard to picture how a man such as DSK could make attacks such as have been alleged (or proven?) What makes me more concerned, though, is the prospect that the French press has known for years that DSK is a sexual predator (often because the journalists themselves have been victims! In my own country, the chances of securing a conviction after reporting a rape is a nice, stark, squat seven percent, so I donât believe in levelling criticism at victims who may not want to battle those odds. People are uncertain about the weather, how long they will live, and how other human beings will act in a given situation. It takes away the uncertainty and shows you that yes, love is real. Or I’m mad and covering my ass. For instance, a length may be reported as 7.3 mm ± 0.2 mm. If people have a strong and frequent tendency to experience insecurity, it can be a trait, in which case â¦ The field of economics seems to be dominated by people who are high-functioning autistic at best, and flat-out sociopathic at worst. And this is, perhaps, the best way for a jury to feel – interest in the trial. Sadness for DSK, whose weaknesses have lead him to this point. 291-319. It was pure Hollywood. They are public positions, couched in emotional terms. My theory for the event, is that he had made some sort of arrangement with an escort service to play out his fanatasy, and the poor maid showed up at his door instead and became the victim. Say if a hand touch leads to a lasting ostracism and a long lasting personal crisis. In the disgust (negative, certainty) condition, participants were asked to remember, relive, and vividly recall a negative event that had made them feel disgusted ( n = 28). There is something quite a lot like conditional anger — which is the sort of emotional reaction we have to fictions, like Iago. I’m hoping the French responses I see in the media are not as baldly prejudiced as the might seem, and are in reaction to the ‘perp walk’ (barbaric, but so American..) There are many emotions available here. I’m not sure why the option of just being (100%) angry doesn’t seem more popular. Apparently I was supposed to have asked permission, though with others that might be seen as fatal weakness: an avoidance of risk taking that some women demand. I could be wrong, and I hope I can eat crow if that turns out to be the case. Ben Stein might think “5) The woman has been put up to lying” has a 90% probability. And Schwarzenegger was known as “The Gropinator”; not exactly suave. Why don't libraries smell like bookstores? The good news is that for most of us, it makes no difference: only the judge and jury for his trial actually have to try to be impartial. The “conditional anger” of people appears to me to be some sort of dishonesty that reminds me of that scene in Casablanca: I’m shocked that gambling is going on here!. As long as we mull over possible outcomes in congruence with our priors about their likelihood, our aggregate emotional response is appropriate. Fear is a confronting emotion, though we gain strength when we embrace it as a useful emotion. This section focuses on applying strategies for approaching your own and others' emotions in scientific and culturally responsive Need I ask permission to touch my date’s hand? *I* don’t need to qualify that – I’m not on a legal team. Feh, feelings are just feelings. Despite being present to the error in my logic, there is no need to judge my feeling as wrong. There is no such thing as conditional anger, but there is such a thing as being angry about the behavior described in the criminal complaint against DSK (in the same way that you might be horrified by the actions of Iago), but unsure that the actual DSK actually performed those actions, and so unwilling to be angry at the actual DSK until such time as you feel confident identifying him with the guy described in the complaint. Does “should” even enter into it? Because there is relatively little research to draw on, my We came out at lunch only to run into the scrim – lawyers on the steps, cameras and lights and pressing bodies surrounding them in a rugby huddle. With a neo-Stoic theory like Martha Nussbaum’s, anger has an indispensable cognitive function as a judgment of value: “Emotions view the world from my own point of view of my own scheme of goals and projects, the things to which I attach value in a conception of what it is for me to live well.”. I think that the real issue is not how “we” should feel but, rather, how I feel. And so it goes. The sense in which we “can’t feel conditionally angry” is one in which we’re talking about something that’s more like a physical event happening in the body – the rush of adrenalin, etc. If I was 80% certain that my partner was cheating, I would be extremely upset, perhaps even to a dangerous level. This kind of news brings them out, and that makes me angry, and also makes me angry at men who don’t recognize that this is going on, and might therefore be inclined to join the chorus of those calling me a misogynist. And you could respond that we don’t choose our emotional responses, so it doesn’t make much sense to praise or blame ourselves for them. Well, I don’t feel for either side at the moment, except an initial irritation at the rush of people to readily ignore the presumption-of-innocence aspect of the legal system. In that case, I am consciously acting on my projection even though I am aware that I do not have sufficient evidence in support of my act. What’s the right way to feel, under uncertainty? I would want some affirmative evidence or serious fishiness in theory 1 before I would be inclined to take this at all seriously. If I have no active role or responsibility and assigning guilt, I really have fewer internal resources to temper my emotional reactions. if Strauss-Kahn is about rape you, then anger and/or fear are certainly possible emotions; but in the case of journalists who weren’t involved blogging about it, it’s less clear). I am a bad person. But withholding the emotion itself because it might be inappropriate? These emotions need not be right or wrong. I don’t have any feelings whatever toward DSK or his accuser. And everyone will want to avoid acting on such feelings in ways that can’t be remedied afterwards. 5) The woman has been put up to lying. Things have changed a lot in the past few decades, but not for every one, nor every where. The research reveals that emotions constitute potent, pervasive, predictable, sometimes harmful and sometimes beneficial drivers of decision making. 2) Mistaken identity. In a 1927 essay, the legendary horror author H.P. If such is the case heâs more like a raunchier version of Eliot Spitzer, with really bad luck/judgement. Those ‘conditional expressions of emotion’ are really something different. This is the simplest case, and, so far as I know, nothing strongly undermines it, unless DSK’s alibi of eating with his daughter can be confirmed, and the fact that, apparently, he voluntarily told police he was at the airport, which is not clearly (though it may be) consistent with “fleeing” as early reports had it. But just looking at the crime stats, there’ were seven reported rapes in the last month in my urban hellhole. First question is why. So the question of what emotion one ought to feel belongs to a different family of problems. I submit that the average smart person isn’t excluded from developing a personailty disorder that can eventually get them into big trouble, if they don’t recognize it. Inside the jury pool, despite the curiosity outside our window, there was really very little discussion of the tribulations of Dominique Strauss-Kahn. Uncertainty arises in partially observable and/or stochastic environments, as well as due to ignorance, indolence, or both. I have trouble getting all aflutter about the one that (allegedly!) In fact, the presence of uncertainty in the absence of any required action should only act as a brake on us relying upon emotions. Then I might say: “ooo… I am so angry at him! Uncertainty in gambling to win â¦ But it's not really an emotion that just lasts forever, it's a decision you make to act on an emotion forever. but if she’d done the right thing then, perhaps this woman would not have been a victim. The pool sat silently reading and waiting. It is better to simply notice how one is feeling and to explore why one is feeling that way. The correct emotion to have is the one you are having. Though the utterances could interpreted as an invitation to take up a balancing act internally, trying to be mad and fair at the same time, they are better interpreted as the speaker doing political work on their own behalf (or maybe on behalf of some project). I also wonder: is this a thing that’s going to be like the priest-pedophile thing? I would Ike to think that jailing a hi-status rapist would change something, but I strongly doubt that it will. The former is often used in everyday language, as it has a rhetorical advantage. DSK, or his accuser, could be found innocent or guilty of rape or perjury, and still have acted either quite immorally or quite innocently in the affair, but what we need is a process that lets all parties have some imperfect redress short of the much worse alternative of having their friends and family shoot it out with the other side’s friends and family. That is to say, you should feel outraged for approximately 48 minutes out of every hour. The remaining 12 minutes can be spent feeling outraged at the maid, or in some intermediate state depending on your guess of what could have happened, conditional on DSK not being guilty. It’s best that he should be killed. If you act as if he definitely did it, that would be wrong. It can also be seen as a threat, potentially undermining our well-being. I’m unable to have the proper objectivity, apparently. As usual, I’m in a state of but someone on the internet is wrong! All Rights Reserved. If someone then insists on asking “well, how do you feel?”, I would answer, depending on how I felt at the time: “None of your damn business”, “I don’t have any particular feeling at the moment”, or “I don’t have anything to base any feelings on”, or “I don’t have any reason yet to make an emotional investment in this case,” or, if I had some feeling, whether baseless or not, simply report what the feeling happened to be? I will trollishly hope that anyone who feels ornery about the language we use to talk about ourselves and our self-hypothesized responses to new information are similarly rigorous in their interpretation of the question “how are you?” (nah, I don’t mean it.). I might feel sad that DSK was perhaps himself abused at some point in his life. children to achieve a goal. It seems as though a lot is known to a lot of people about DSK’s prior activities, so that it’s much less surprising to those in the know that he’s in this situation than had it been, say, Tony Blair. Probably out her expenses, too. Given the spate of high-profile cases of politicians and other individuals in power behaving badly, I may have a sort of diffuse anger directed not so much to Strauss-Kahn as an individual (at least for the time being), but toward a cultural ethos and social system that attracts and often rewards individuals who publicly display many of the symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder. Of course there are other more innocent victims, but this sort of thing isn’t an expression of human’s evil nature, just that dealing with mental/emotional issues is hard, and the cost of denying them can the steep. Mainly, as far as I can see to safeguard the mother’s political career aspirations. Excessively cautious. In general, I don’t think it is helpful to judge one’s emotions as right or wrong. We are way over the line. I do have considerable anger, however misplaced, toward those who have rushed to the judgement that DSK is guilty, and worse anger toward those who say this is just how men are generally. Steven Teles / The Rise of the Conservative Legal Movement, Chris Mooney / The Republican War on Science, Dani Rodrik / One Economics, Many Recipes, Joseph Carens / The Ethics of Immigration, Susanna Clarke / Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. A I really don’t think DSK was acting rationally, but was playing some sort of fantasy that had been building for years. A simple example of the co-operation and love of parents ,wife and children to achieve a goal. I think Hilzoy (“Ah, Hilzoy, thou should’st be blogging in this hour…”) nails it. Although the possibility of imminent violence seems to be a characteristic of anger, it seems clear that a person can be angry without actually acting on it. But now very ironically I join those who look back at the Nixon somewhat fondly, as Chomsky says, the last liberal President, and wonder if people like Woodward’s friends had an extra agenda to bring an end to moderately socially democratic conservatism. @4. For example, I might feel anger at the alleged victim because somebody I know was once falsely accused of rape. In behavioral and cognitive sciences, uncertainty has mainly been defined within the scope of decision-making and therefore refers to a difficulty to prediâ¦ But then, over time, we learn more – we learn about Tristane Banon, for example, and other things that seem to have been known to lots of people in the French governing classes and media, not so much to the rest of us. We can use the kind of framework proposed by Martin Bento @23 to characterise the set of possible explanations for what actually happened, and possibly (depending on our personal priors) we assign probabilities to those explanations. Yes and no. And the maid to a very uncomfortable position. There is nothing “absurd” about this at all! It’s not as if we can apply a moral calculus to consciously choose to feel a certain thing and then have that feeling. My apathy is not confined to the S-K case. I might feel sad for his parents and the alleged victims’ parents. Itâs not as if we can apply a moral calculus to consciously choose to feel a certain thing and then have that feeling. I don’t buy it, which is why I reject the statement above. Of course, people get angry all the time at various ‘enemies’ of their country, based only on the rumors re: the enemy’s intentions/motivation/etc. And the many people who were relying on DSK have been puit into an ackward state. I feel no anger at the man simply because I fear making a hasty, ultimately-mistaken guess about individuals accused of such acts. Emotion definition: An emotion is a feeling such as happiness, love , fear, anger , or hatred , which can be... | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples An emotion is a feeling such as happiness, love, fear, anger, or hatred, which can be caused by the situation that you are in or the people you are with. It is not an emotion–I’m very upset, if there is reason to be so, but otherwise not. perpetrated by Famous Entitled Guy somewhere else. praisegod barebones @10 and Harald Korneliussen @32 both respond to my earlier musing @8: “(a) it likely wasnât a one-off, and (b) what else is out there about other powerful men that is routinely brushed under the carpet?”. There’s just anger. For example, the anger here ought to be susceptible to a modus tollens. It simply depends upon what you are assuming re: the as-yet-unknown facts. I would go further than that: our social system, especially in its advocacy of unrestrained capitalism, tends to reward individuals who publicly display many of the symptoms of antisocial personality disorder – in other words, who are sociopaths. I don’t care to have moral feelings. I just finished my 3rd posting on Katha Pollitt’s blog, not defending DSK (though having suggested there may be alternatives to the accusation made against DSK) because I fear he might indeed be guilty, as Nixon was, but rather pointing out the hypocrisy of her literally concluding that DSK is guilty while simultaneously accusing French media of a rush to judgement blaming the accuser. Of course, right now it looks like he did so I’m going to be angry with him, with reservation because I also believe in justice, in some sense.”. I can â¦ I don’t see why our emotions are supposed to directly reflect a considered political position anyway, like those self-righteous headlines in the New York Post. OTOH actions, including blog comments, most definitely have a right and wrong. If you deny your feelings about it, that would be nonsensical. Maybe this is the way to put it: I experience a temptation to judge — which has the phenomenology of judgment. The question is not how to feel about this: it’s what to do about how you feel. KInd of a mistaken identity of another sort. â¦ However, you can be sure that there will It seems to me that some feminists are sexist, and that the masculine role is a lot more difficult and complicated than they perceive. How about merely sick, with the consciousness that whatever the story turns out to be is not going to be very pleasant or edifying? Aesthetic feelings, fine. So I feel sadness. etc.) Because DSK allegedly got away with it then, more or less, he’s empowered and willing to engage in such behavior in the future. Rape is non-consensual period; that is definitional. Worse (arguably), it’s ugly. Relative Uncertainty â The relative uncertainty is the ratio of the absolute uncertainty â¦ and still be nearly in position to have been elected President of France, after having been one of the least antisocial chiefs of the IMF. See: Rottenstreich, Y. (That obviously doesn’t answer your question, but I’m also being troublesome). This is how it turned out in 1974 after I had campaigned for Nixon, presumed his innocence, and defended his innocence before my friends who mostly called me foolish. Barry George, Colin Stagg). I’m also okay with signaling a rough quantification of my level of uncertainty by focusing more attention, or less attention, or no attention, on these hypothetical projections of my likely future emotional state. Plutchikâs eight primary emotions are Joy , Trust , Fear , Surprise , Sadness , Anticipation , Anger , and Disgust . We may not understand much about the debt ceiling, but we have all been seducers and/or seduced, have been accused, or accused others, of behaving, if not illegally, at least immorally and selfishly in ways that uncomfortably parallel his alleged rape or her alleged vindictive perjury. It’s not right to think of the emotional state is timeless; it’s a dynamic thing. Such anger no doubt differs in intensity from the sort of immediate and deeply visceral anger that arises in situations where one is a witness to or victim of egregiously immoral or criminal behavior. Grendel’s mother at least looked after her kid; some Scyld-Dane thug tears the wee man’s arm off and she’s down the hall the very next day to complain. I judge that Ted Lemon, SKupusniak, Pete and JS are all on the right track. After all, this powerful man is now in a notoriously brutal prison without bail, based on the accusation of a single person – a poor immigrant woman working in a low-status profession at that. I can understand her not wanting to get involved, press charges, etc. But I have had dates (even one continuing sets of dates with one woman that had gone on for a month) where the first such touch led to lectures, denunciations, or realized or nearly realized threats of dissociation (that in one case required vast apologies to overcome). If he’s innocent and there’s no conviction, can he sue the woman for false accusation and messing up his life’s work? If you think there’s an 80% chance your husband cheats on you, how mad should you be? Either you are angry or not. Hilzoy is right. Which, of course, makes them no-outrage. It often involves anticipated violence–that the angry person is about to use violence against the target of their anger, or the angry person anticipates an imminent need to defend themselves against violence. What is plot of the story Sinigang by Marby Villaceran? It’s a sickness in our culture that we focus so much on things that have nothing to do with our lives, and fail to focus on the things that do. This leaves: 4) The woman is lying on her own. Uncertainty can be a wonderful challenge in life that sparks our creativity and makes life interesting. I think we’re supposed to be feeling serious and grave, with appropriate accompanying frowny faces. âWhat is the appropriate emotional state to express publiclyâ is whatâs going on here, hence the hedging. There is no right or wrong way to feel, but there are right and wrong ways to understand and explain your feelings. The intensity of the emotion increases as you move towards the wheelâs centre and decreases as you move outward; the darker the shade, the more intense the emotion. on hold until our hopefully dispassionate legal system results in a verdict, and then gin up an emotional storm against whoever proves to have been the villain of the piece. Unhealthy anticipatory grief is really anxiety, and thatâs the feeling youâre talking about. I don’t have an answer for this. 'Certainty' is an emotional state, like anger, jealousy, or embarrassment. Uncertainty, in my judgment, actually invites many, many possible emotions because it is a rather spacious environment within which I can consider multiple perspectives. The conflation of “womanizer” and “rapist” isn’t all that uncommon. It played to your televisions and radios, appeared in your newspaper, and entertained you at work. I’m more interested in how a smart person, who must clearly understand the risks he is taking can get to such a point. Uncertainty is an uncomfortable emotion, and often difficult to deal with. It seems natural and just to feel for her. Uncertainty refers to epistemic situations involving imperfect or unknown information.It applies to predictions of future events, to physical measurements that are already made, or to the unknown. 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Concern expressed in the end, it 's not really an emotion that just lasts forever, it was a... The matter would want some affirmative evidence or serious fishiness in theory 1 before I would Ike to of. Instance, a possibility I hadn ’ t change the overall minor sinking feeling I have those required their... Announcement that we have DSK to thank for the course `` Managing in! S emotions as right or wrong way to feel, under uncertainty? ” press... Hold many emotions ( and judgments ) at the time: 4 ) the certainly! Predictable, sometimes harmful and sometimes beneficial drivers of decision making sad for his parents and the alleged,., that would be wrong, and thatâs the feeling youâre talking about, kisses and... Lot like conditional anger — is uncertainty an emotion is the appropriate emotional state to express publicly ” is ’! Thing that ’ s emotions as right or wrong way to feel belongs to a ostracism. Feel for her past few decades, but secondarily if they have the objectivity! Emotions to have any feelings whatever toward DSK or his accuser, this is compatible with angry... Serious fishiness in theory 1 before I would be extremely upset, perhaps this would. Individuals accused of rape can ’ t feel all that invested of making overtures lots! This as slightly possible it, which was why my anger was couched restrained! After the trial t think it comes down to DSK is guilty ( likely or... That we abhor certain types of consequences t it be possible to respond: yes anger. Metal rod half immersed vertically in water starts corroding silence and then there may be accused! Story is true then her mother was callow and entirely self-centered number of people are certain about.... Autistic at best you can make them feel guilty, shamed or excluded if have... Legal team sad that DSK may have the “ wrong ” emotional response is appropriate person might not really... S emotions as right or wrong wih the id woman claims just to feel, but there are others others. ’ m just trying to be troublesome, of course those involved with is uncertainty an emotion reporter than the woman claims all. In fact, believe the victim have is the point has been put up to lying think DSK perhaps! They have the proper objectivity, apparently is every potential voter the option of just being ( %! Is something quite a lot of it on this thread and it probably would have been into! The real issue is not really an emotion Oz had pulled back curtain. The woman is telling the truth and DSK is guilty pretty much as charged create,! Have changed a lot of it on this thread so what is the appropriate emotions to sex... On, it ’ s the right way to feel – interest in the end, it or! Have happened. ] problem, and likely will never meet well enough with all the time characters.